login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Need help to identify some Panzers
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Sunday, September 22, 2019 - 11:47 PM UTC
Hello all. I need your help to identify the Panzers that are mounted on the flatbed wagons. Ok, a Panther but... and the other one, a Hummel or.... you know what I mean. Picture shows German troops leaving a Ukraine city because of the Russians.

Very intriguing photo. A lot of details that I will use for my diorama I'm planning.
Layout of tracks is very much to my liking.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
m4sherman
Visit this Community
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,779 posts
Armorama: 1,730 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:00 AM UTC
Hummel chassis used as a munitions carrier? They put the roof off a small building on top of the hull sides to keep it dry inside?

The Panther is a D, maybe the tanks are going back for refitting.

It's a great picture.
Removed by original poster on 09/23/19 - 12:02:55 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 09/23/19 - 12:20:57 (GMT).
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:16 AM UTC
Thanks so far Randall. I'm always curious what makes it a Hummel and not a Nashorn... Same goes for the Panther types.
From the site the picture comes, text learns about the retreat of German troops. Will have to dig to find the name of the city, year and date.
Two more pictures from that day.



Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,188 posts
Armorama: 11,978 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:44 AM UTC
According to several captions I've found, these pics were taken in Kirovograd.

From tanks-encyclopedia.com :

"In January 1944, s.Pz.Jg.Abt 560 participated in the German defense of the city of Kirovograd (currently known as Kropyvnytskyi). In early February, this unit began a slow withdrawal toward Mielau in order to be requipped with the new Jagdpanther. By March, it was still engaged on the Eastern front under the LVII Pz.Korps, losing 16 Nashorn. By this time, s.Pz.Jg.Abt 560 had only 4 operational and 10 non-operational vehicles remaining. In late April 1944, the withdrawal was completed and s.Pz.Jg.Abt 560 was moved to Mielau."

So....Could it rather be a "non-operational" Nashorn (with the gun removed) ?

H.P.
Bonaparte84
Visit this Community
Hessen, Germany
Joined: July 17, 2013
KitMaker: 310 posts
Armorama: 303 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks so far Randall. I'm always curious what makes it a Hummel and not a Nashorn... Same goes for the Panther types.



Thanks for these very interesting pics.

I agree with the Panther D assessment. The Panther has the early side armor arrangement with that vertical armor plate at the rear, which makes it a D or A, but the commander's cupola with vertical armor makes an overall early type, i.e. D. You can study the intricacies of the modifications to the Panther here:
http://panther1944.de/index.php/en/sdkfz-171-pzkpfwg-panther/technik/technical-changes

As regards the Hummel/Nashorn, they did indeed use the same chassis. However, AFAIK only the Hummels received their own dedicated ammo carier based on the same chassis (http://www.oocities.org/pentagon/2833/heer/special/munitionhummel/munitionhummel.html). Therefore, in your picture it's either a Hummel ammo carrier or a Nashorn/Hummel with the gun/barrel removed.







ayovtshev
#490
Visit this Community
Sofiya, Bulgaria
Joined: September 22, 2016
KitMaker: 1,075 posts
Armorama: 1,035 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 01:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks so far Randall. I'm always curious what makes it a Hummel and not a Nashorn... Same goes for the Panther types



Robert,

The difference between Hummel and Nashorn is in the main armament.
The Hummel "carries" the 15cm.sFH 18 heavy howitzer, while the Nashorn has the 8.8 cm PAK 43/1.
Thus the Hummel was a SPG, while the Nashorn was a TD.

Because the vehicle pictured is lacking it's main armament- and any ammo racks, that would suggest a Hummel Munitionstraeger are obscured by the elements protection on top of the casemate- you have a wild cart here, Robert

You can build it as either Hummel, or Nashorn-whatever you like more...

As to the Panthers- the easiest to recognize difference between D and A Ausfuehrungen, when looked from behind, is the count of tubes, coming out of the left exhaust port.
If there is only one wide tube-it is Ausf.D
If there are 3 tubes, of which the central one is wide, while the side tubes are narrower- it is Ausf. A.

I see only one tube pointing to the sky, so I also think we are dealing with Panther D type vehicle here.

HTH
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 01:42 AM UTC
Thanks Angel for explaining. From the post H.P. added I will probably go for a Nashorn.
Text that goes with the first picture I posted, from the site: https://eisenbahnstiftung.de/bildergalerie/Reichsbahn%20im%20Krieg, in German:
"Nachdem die Rote Armee im Herbst 1943 den Dnjepr überschritten hatte, musste die Wehrmacht die Stadt Kirowograd räumen. "Bildberichter" Walter Hollnagel dokumentierte die trostlose Aktion. Für den Rückzug der deutschen Wehrmacht aus Kirowograd (westl. von Dnjepropetrowsk) wurden alle verfügbaren Fahrzeuge genutzt. Vor dem Bahnhofsgebäude rangiert 56 527. (10.1943) Foto: Walter Hollnagel"

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
panamadan
Visit this Community
Minnesota, United States
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 01:49 AM UTC
This I think-
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/cyber-hobby-6151-geschuetzwagen-iii-iv--133940
Dan
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 01:55 AM UTC
Thanks for the link Dan.
Check some stores tonight...
But a closer look almost convinces me it's Nashorn or Hummel without a gun.
Gives me the opportunity to shop for a Nashorn. Think it will be the AFV Club 35164.

Robert Jan
alanmac
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 2,917 posts
Armorama: 2,839 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 02:08 AM UTC



The Cyberhobby kit was a limited edition White Box release so doubtful about availability, and could be costly.

Better option is a Nashorn or Hummel kit, modified, which at the end of the day is what it was anyway, the chassis less gun. Maybe some additional storage but given the makeshift covering on its top and crew sat inside I reckon you could do your own interpretation.

Both kits have been released again by Dragon recently and appear on Ebay quite frequently.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/dragon-6321-hummel--108451
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/dragon-6386-nashorn--100914

Alan
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,188 posts
Armorama: 11,978 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 02:11 AM UTC
Dragon Hornisse/Nashorn kit #6165 includes s.Pz.Jg.Abt.560 markings as well :

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/dragon-6165-sdkfz-164-hornisse--108114

H.P.
panzerbob01
Visit this Community
Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,952 posts
Armorama: 2,783 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 03:58 AM UTC
Regarding the Panther: It is an Ausf D. The easiest way for most to tell this from the rear quarter, as in the photo, is actually the presence of the "drum cupola" on the turret - this cupola type only occurred on Panther D. It being there is a fairly "categorical mark" of a D. Note of course that the last several D produced had the distinctly different "Prismakoppel" cupola common to all Panther A and G and seen also on later-production Tiger I and on all Tiger II tanks. So, in the case of those late-production D,s... one must needs look at exhaust pipes and on the hull glacis to see the "letter-box" MG port (and of course, because the shift to Ausf A was a sort of gradual thing where last D and earliest A tanks combined old stock parts with new... there were "mixed" individuals or transition vehicles...). In any case, the Panther in the photo is clearly a D.

Cheers!

Bob

PS: Regarding the "Muni-Nashorn"... The camo scheme looks to me to be much like that which the Cyber Hobby Munitionstrager Hummel shows in its box-art. Maybe THIS photo, or another showing this same vehicle, could have been the source for that kit's camo scheme... Of course, that scheme may well have been some sort of "common" scheme widely applied to some unit's vehicles, or...

beerbryan11
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: September 19, 2016
KitMaker: 5 posts
Armorama: 5 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 05:49 AM UTC
the Hummel is most likely a munitions chassis Hummel. The photo shows no stowage rack for the red and white painted aiming stakes that all Hummels would have. Cyber-hobby makes a great kit that only needs ammo to complete it
alanmac
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 2,917 posts
Armorama: 2,839 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 06:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Cyber-hobby makes a great kit that only needs ammo to complete it



and deep pockets to purchase it. Check out those few that are available with a google search.
m4sherman
Visit this Community
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,779 posts
Armorama: 1,730 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 10:49 AM UTC
[quote]Thanks so far Randall. I'm always curious what makes it a Hummel and not a Nashorn... Same goes for the Panther types.[quote]

I see your questions have been answered about the vehicle types, and location. Your new pictures are also wonderful. Those are the scenes often overlooked.

The Panther on further inspection looks used, but not beat up. The cupola is the one thing that makes the tank a D, however, on page 95 of Panthers on the Battlefield is a G with a D type cupola fitted. Believed to be a rebuild using older parts.
m4sherman
Visit this Community
Arizona, United States
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,779 posts
Armorama: 1,730 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 11:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Panther on further inspection looks used, but not beat up. The cupola is the one thing that makes the tank a D, however, on page 95 of Panthers on the Battlefield is a G with a D type cupola fitted. Believed to be a rebuild using older parts.



Just to be clear, the tank in the picture had the D/A hull, making it a standard D.
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 12:01 PM UTC
Thanks everybody for the input. Lot of my questions have answered.
Have to find out what will be the best choices for a Hummel, Nashorn or Panther kit. Options where I prefer a kit, (in this case for a Panther), without an interior. Also have to make a decision on what is represented, that is actually on the move for my planned diorama.
These vehicles for sure are a nice starting point. I like the time frame 1943 - 1944.
Will keep on digging.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,032 posts
Armorama: 1,028 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 02:28 PM UTC
Those excellent photos were taken in October 1943 (I think the original captions on that website are fairly convincing in their detail) so that Panther D was a very rare survivor. Of the 200 D’s rushed to Kursk in time for the battles in early-mid July ’43, a report dated August 11th cited total write-offs as 156 and only 9 still operational. Presumably another 17 were under repair or being canabalised for spares because 18 had already been sent back to Germany in late July for major repair & partial upgrade to the new A specification; the first “true” A’s started rolling off the production line also in mid-August ’43.

So if it’s an un-modified D it could be one of the 9 mentioned above, and by October ’43 perhaps one of the last “originals” still running. On the other hand it could be one of the spares carcasses – debatable seeing as the gun’s still in place, but I’m just throwing in a theory that both it AND the Hummel are spares carcasses and that this might be the back end of a Workshop company. Otherwise it’s a peculiar pair of AFVs to have on consecutive flatbeds. Anyhow if you agree it might influence the theme of the overall dio

SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 02:51 PM UTC
Thanks for the input Tim. I'm looking for all kinds of information that would make a diorama work. Found another picture from the October 1943 Rückzug.
German Officers inspect the load. Picture taken at same location. Comes from a series of 4 by the respective photographer mentioned in earliera post above.
You see the rather undamaged Panthers on a SSyms & SSys.


-Edit-
Taking a second and third look. Panthers are missing road wheels and a serious hit can be seen on the mantle.

Kind regards,

Robert Jan
Dioramartin
Visit this Community
New South Wales, Australia
Joined: May 04, 2016
KitMaker: 1,032 posts
Armorama: 1,028 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 03:12 PM UTC
Aha! Well OK but not pristine either, they’ve lost their side-skirt brackets which suggests they’re not going into combat anytime soon. No spare track links either. In fact aren’t they both missing a road-wheel or two? Maybe that's travel mode but the rear tank only has two outer wheels...maybe they're carcasses too

SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 04:41 PM UTC
Think your theory of the carcasses makes sense. Interesting!

Robert Jan
panzerbob01
Visit this Community
Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 2,952 posts
Armorama: 2,783 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 05:07 PM UTC
I would say that these 2 kitties - clearly stripped of OVM, spare track missing, some road wheels missing... Look to be on their way to Nibelungenwerk for a much-needed refurbishment.

One or 2 such kitties on a flat would be a very cool dio.

Bob
SpeedyJ
Visit this Community
Bangkok, Thailand / ไทย
Joined: September 17, 2013
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 821 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2019 - 06:05 PM UTC
Factory Fresh Panther Ausf. D medium tanks on rail cars waiting to be shipped to the front, Apr-May 1943


Robert Jan